Open almost any Anti-Mormon book and you will find mention made of Mormon informants but no names provided for these anonymous informants. How very curios! If they are forthcoming about what is wrong with their faith why would they hesitate to declare their names and make their alleged "testimonies" of value?
It is my contention that any hostile writer that supplies "information" about Mormonism that confirms the Anti-Mormon’s conclusions that provides no verifiable information about his "informant" is a lie, impure and sinful.
Not long ago a dedicated (Anonymous) Mormon assured me that he was depending on Jesus alone for his salvation, I said, ‘Suppose someone not in the Mormon church accepted Christ and depended on him alone to get into the ‘highest heaven.’ Would that person make it?”
The (Anonymous) Mormon was suddenly silent, mute evidence that consciously or unconsciously he (the Anonymous Mormon) is depending on Christ plus the Mormon church. –Floyd C McElveen, The Mormon Illusion, p. 105
I rate this "testimony" a pure invention of McElveen's.
Two things stand out here that betray McElveen’s duplicity. First is his failure to provide that ‘dedicated Mormon’ with a name, and the second is McElveen’s magical weaving of the Mormon’s silence, that McElveen, apparently using arcane occult means, transmogrifies into ‘evidence,’ and forges from his anonymous Mormon's silence a frank admission from the silent and anonymous Mormon that he was dependent not only on Jesus for his salvation, but was also depending on the ‘Mormon church’ to secure his eternal salvation.
In a more demanding forum than McElveen’s jottings such ‘evidence’ and its highly implausible interpretation by a man that declares that:
With God’s help, we will seek to take a fair and honest look at Joseph Smith and a few of his teachings as Scripture and the love of Christ constrains us to. –Floyd C McElveen, The Mormon Illusion, p. 8
Apparently, McElveen's "FAIR AND HONEST LOOK" involves; occultic mind reading with the help of Satan himself. Only McElveen can generate meaning from silence, and so he does from the silence of his ANONYMOUS MORMON!
We are entitle to ask how McElveen gained the confidence of the Devil so that the Devil gave him the demonic gift of mind-reading and composing evidence from silence and nothing when the rest of the world knows that a man saying nothing is left in his silence.
Silence, in the Satanic cult of McElveen, is believed by Satan and his acolytes to be speaking volumes. Apparently from the evidence of what McElveen says we are entitled, using the McElveen Occultic and Fiendish methods he employs in his Private Delphic Oracle Cave, to conclude that God refused McElveen the help he sought from the silent Latter-day Saint leaving McElveen to his own Satanically-darkened distortions about Mormonism, a faith about which McElveen wallows in ignorance even with the Devil as his assistant. Poor darkened Satan-ridden occultist McElveen, how they double darkness shows, "For now he sees through a glass, darkly," ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth while he pretends to be a servant of the Living God!
And, unfortunately for our understanding, McElveen fails to explain how an Anonymous Mormon’s silence can be considered ‘mute evidence’ or, indeed, as any kind of evidence for anything, let alone for an admission that the silent and anonymous witness is informing his auditor, who heard nothing, into a statement that he 'relies on Jesus and on the Mormon church for his salvation.'
Suddenly, McElveen’s promise to his readers to ‘take a fair and honest look’ is transformed into a tawdry plea from a dishonest man to be considered honest, when he employs patently dishonest practices in the name of God.
McElveen introduces another anonymous Mormon as if all us Mormons are anonymous! He writes:
A Mormon (Anonymous) lady, wife of a local (Anonymous) Mormon leader, considerably shaken by some of the facts I had been sharing with her, phoned several nights ago concerning this text.
Before I formed thee in the [womb] I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5
“Doesn't’t this prove we existed before we existed before we were born if God knew us before we were formed in the womb?” she asked.
Absolutely not! Not any more than Matthew 7:23 “And then will I profess to them I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” would prove that there were people existing whom God was not aware of! (Emphasis McElveen's) [Op. Cit. p. 122]
I must say that McElveen’s response to the Anonymous Mormon lady did not address her question at all. In fact, or, as McElveen would say, ‘In actual fact!’ he sidesteps her question and misdirects her altogether.
Perhaps McElveen’s Anonymous Mormons do not exist at all but are Anonymous straw men, and Anonymous straw-ladies, designed to give the impression that McElveen has skills in silencing and foisting off nonsense on Anonymous Mormons that do, 'in actual fact,' exist by demonstrating what he begs us to acknowledge as his prowess in discourse.
But even the cunning Floyd should be aware that Mormons he never knew make poor witnesses, and are, in actual fact, no witnesses at all. His blindness to facts are overwhelming for without saying a word he admits his deceit.
McElveen deals with Jeremiah’s inspired utterance by ignoring it altogether, for he can offer the Anonymous female Mormon revenant no explanation of the passage at all. Perhaps nothing at all is the best he can do!
How fortunate that more substantial scholars than Floyd C McElveen (if it be not an error of judgement to think of McElveen as a biblical scholar) have offered their thoughts on this same passage that might give the poor Mormon lady, not a better answer, but an answer where McElveen failed her. However, more substantial minds that do know their subject conclude as follows:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible offers:
Rather, "Before I formed thee in the belly." I approved of thee (as one fit for the prophetic office)," and before thou camest forth from the womb" I made thee holy (dedicated thee to holy uses); I have appointed thee (now by this public call to be) "a prophet unto the nations."
In this, Barnes offers us nothing that deals with any pre-birth interaction between God and Jeremiah, which is certainly the matter of greatest interest in the verse. However, Matthew Poole’s Commentary deals with the matter straight on:
Before I formed thee in the belly, i.e. womb. Having spoken before of the time of his call, Jeremiah 1:4, he now speaks of the manner of it. I knew thee, i.e. approved and appointed thee, as a fit minister for this work. Words of knowledge among the Hebrews note affection, as hath been formerly noted. I sanctified thee, viz. not with saving grace, though that need not to be excluded; but accordingly I prepared and ordained thee for this public service.
The Adam Clarke Commentary finds no reason to evade the pre-existence of humanity as McElveen found need. He says:
Before I formed thee - I had destined thee to the prophetic office before thou wert born:I had formed my plan, and appointed thee to be my envoy to his people
John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible offers:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, ... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; in which sense the Lord knows them that are his, as he does not others, and predestinates them unto eternal life; and which is not only before their formation in the womb, but before the foundation of the world, even from all eternity. The forming of the human fœtus is God's act, and a curious piece of workmanship it is. [Emphasis added]
And before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; not by infusing holiness into him, but by separating him in his eternal purposes and decrees to the office of a prophet before he was born, and even before the world began; just as the Apostle Paul was separated to the Gospel of God.
By these able commentators we, and Pastor Floyd C McElveen and his invented Anonymous Mormon lady whose straightforward Bible passage about pre-existence Pastor McElveen could not answer and so he deftly and expertly side-stepped with a skill that Terpsichorean Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire would admire, are informed that God does indeed know us before we were conceived, carried, and born and that in certain cases he trusts us with his divine commission that we are to fulfill after we enter mortality when we are spiritually mature.
This is the Bible-Truth answer McElveen ought to have provided for his anonymous local Mormon leader’s anonymous lady wife, rather than tossing a non-sequitur her way by way of a silencer as a diner might toss a ham bone to am anonymous dog.
Just when we think we have struck it lucky because McElveen names a Mormon contributor to his delusions, what we have dared to imagine is our good fortune is as quickly snatched away from us by his startling admission that,
Following are true experiences (although some of the names are fictitious) of Mormons who received this one salvation. insists McElveen, Op. Cit. p. 165
Despite that disappointment, McElveen continues to use total anonymity. For example on page 164 he refers to more anonymous Mormons, such as:
A young [anonymous] Mormon lady and her [anonymous] Mormon husband ….
And, on page 166 we are introduced to,
… a young [Anonymous] Mormon mother …
Page 167 tells of,
Brett Somers .. a rather well-to-do Mormon … [No trace of this person comes up on an Internet search although a well known entertainer shares the name]
McElveen, no doubt to protect what is left of his shredded reputation and to reinforce his excuse for being unable to name even one member that left Mormonism by the ‘proofs’ he provided to them that Mormonism did not square with the teachings of the Holy Bible, virtually repeats his disclaimer on page 165, saying,
Some of the names in these testimonies are fictitious to protect the individuals involved. No one, who has not experienced it, can believe the intense pressure the Mormon church, relatives, loved ones, family and friends, can put on those who get saved and leave the Mormon church. [Op. Cit. p. 168]
One would imagine that the joy McElveen describes as being the lot of these "converted to the real Jesus Christ" ex-Mormons would enable them to "Stand up, Stand up for Jesus" as soldiers of his cross and declare their testimonies over their own names and over the rampart of their now enemies! That this is not so leaves us doubting that they were converted at all and that they are literary fictions to support a hollow and trumped-up case against Mormonism and Mormons.
Thank you, Floyd, we get the picture and the message.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the cross.
Lift high His royal banner, it must not suffer loss.
From victory unto victory His army shall He lead,
Till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the solemn watchword hear;
If while ye sleep He suffers, away with shame and fear;
Where’er ye meet with evil, within you or without,
Charge for the God of battles, and put the foe to rout.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the trumpet call obey;
Forth to the mighty conflict, in this His glorious day.
Ye that are brave now serve Him against unnumbered foes;
Let courage rise with danger, and strength to strength oppose.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, stand in His strength alone;
The arm of flesh will fail you, ye dare not trust your own.
Put on the Gospel armor, each piece put on with prayer;
Where duty calls or danger, be never wanting there.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, each soldier to his post,
Close up the broken column, and shout through all the host:
Make good the loss so heavy, in those that still remain,
And prove to all around you that death itself is gain.
Stand up, stand up for Jesus, the strife will not be long;
This day the noise of battle, the next the victor’s song.
To those who vanquish evil a crown of life shall be;
The sad actual fact that McElveen's Army of Anonymous Mormons that rallied beneath his tattered banner that smells of the smoke of Hell and Satan will not stand up for Jesus is ample evidence that they do not exist, or if they do, they are still Mormon and so must remain hidden and treated as though the Pastor had been victorious when he was not.
Another beloved hymn of Isaac Watts, is, I'm Not Ashamed To Own My Lord.
I’m not ashamed to own my Lord,
Or to defend His cause;
Maintain the honor of His Word,
The glory of His cross.
Jesus, my God! I know His Name,
His Name is all my trust;
Nor will He put my soul to shame,
Nor let my hope be lost.
Firm as His throne His promise stands,
And He can well secure
What I’ve committed to His hands
Till the decisive hour.
Then will He own my worthless name
Before His Father’s face,
And in the new Jerusalem
Appoint my soul a place.
No question that real Christians will not be ashamed to admit knowing their Lord and not be such cringing cowards afraid to let the whole world know their 'Worthless names.' Except, that is, when Pastor McElveen is exercising his penchant for his Satanically-inspired McElveen's Inquisition!
In his treatment of the Gospel of Jesus Christ contained in the Lord's restored Gospel and Church, the Fustian McElveen attempts to make vices out of the plentiful virtues of Latter-day saints, or "Mormons," as he is content to call us.
He further attempts to show that white is black, that concern and care for ‘relatives, loved ones, family and friends’ by making efforts to keep them firm in their faith is nothing but another example of Mormon wickedness. How redolent of petulant, unsocialised infants in the nursery school yard!
He studiously ignores the teaching of Jesus Christ in the parable of the Ninety and Nine sheep and the one that was lost. In case Floyd reads this page I will remind him of what Jesus said.
And [Jesus] spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. --Luke 15:3-7 [AV]
Jesus also taught,
Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. -- Luke 15:8-10 [AV]
McElveen firmly declares:
One of the foremost badges of the true Christian is love. John 13:35 says, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another … Knocking somebody else’s religion isn’t love!” [Op. Cit. p. 5-6]
Yet when Latter-day Saints show their love by seeking to return the lost sheep to the fold, in McElveen’s eyes that Christian love that McElveen boldly declares to be ‘one of the badges of the true Christian’ [see page 5-6.] is magically distorted into wickedness as if from Satan, and not from God or his Christ. Methinks the gentleman protesteth too much!
I have seen complaints from former and remaining Latter-day Saints that when they went less active in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for any reason, they were either:
1. "Ignored" by the Church and left to suffer and struggle against their spiritual difficulties without any offer of assistance, or else,
2. "Bombarded" with visitors, telephone calls, letters, cards, and offers of help from concerned trying to help them to stay faithful in the Church, from ‘relatives, loved ones, family and friends’ and from their Bishop or other concerned Church leaders.
The upshot of these two opposing complaints is that we Mormon are ‘damned if we do and damned if we don’t.’ Both positions are used as ammunition by those whose callings in life (the origin of the call remains the subject of speculation), is to show what a miserable lot of demonic sinners Mormons are when they are doing what Jesus said his Disciples would do, and are exercising their Christian Christ taught qualifications to wear the ‘badge of the true Christian,’ except in cases where struggling people are abandoned to their doubts and troubles, a condition that no Mormon would agree is proper.
Floyd McElveen would be neglecting the badge of ‘the true Anti-Mormon’ if he did not declare his ‘love’ for the very Mormons his life’s work is dedicated to the destruction of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Although he is careful not to throw praise or indication of virtue towards the Mormons he calls unashamedly illusory, he says he loves us. Please do be kind and stop loving us so much Mr McElveen. Your love is the cruel kind.
Ah, if any Christians in today’s world know how such love hurts, wounds, and destroys, it is we simple but faithful-to-the-death members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
We have been loved to death by the McElveens of the Christian world in Carthage Jail, on the plains, in our cities and homes by arsonist, stock stealers, rapists, and murderers all acting under the banner, they claim, of Jesus Christ. These Christians have marshalled together in serried ranks to attack, destroy, and crush us! Saint Ignatius of Antioch addressed such persecutors.
Let no rank puff up anyone; for faith and love are paramount - the greatest blessings in the world.
Jack Wellman, of www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com woefully admits that:
Many Christians suffer persecutions in their daily walk with Christ. This should not be surprising. Jesus predicted it for those who believed in Him (John 15:20) and the Apostle Peter told the church that they should not be surprised when they suffer insults because of their faith in Christ (I Peter 4:14). What is surprising is that other Christians receive persecutions – and some of the fiercest at that – from other Christians.
This ought not to be so.
Alas, while it ought not to be so, especially for those that tell us repeatedly that they wear and do so authoritatively, ‘the badge of the true Christian,’ it remains so. There is hardly a ministry, so-called, of those whose minds are disturbed to the point of trying their hardest to destroy the sacred faith of others, that does not include Mormon and Mormonism in their long lists of ‘false’ or ‘counterfeit’ religions and Christian denominations. Floyd C McElveen is not the least among them.
The back cover blurb of his book ‘The Mormon Illusion,’ states with disarming but misplaced candour:
Floyd McElveen, who worked among Mormons
and sincerely loves them …
That is the claim, but his book is a shabby collection of open attacks on many of the
tenets of Mormonism with which McElveen disagrees. He is free to disagree, but the TRUTH is that he relies on distortion, decontextualisations, exaggerations, and misrepresentations, often drawing on obscure opinions expressed a long time ago of matters that are not now, and never have been, doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
These are common tricks employed by the majority of those that are professional Anti-Mormons, which is an annual multi-million dollar business. Unfortunately, those that swallow McElveenism and his version of what Latter-day Saints believe are hardly ever qualified to show the ‘lover of Mormon’ where he is using bad faith and outright lies.
I wish him well, but pray that God will open the eyes of him, and those engaged in the same profitable business of slamming Mormonism for profit and personal satisfaction at the expense of truth.
Of course, it goes without saying that I love Brother McElveen but hate McElveenism, and he should not take that personally because I am wearing what he describes as the ‘badge of the true Christian.’
Do you think that Floyd would be impressed if I were to say that a Pentecostal minister, that must remain anonymous to avoid embarrassment, told me that he saw Floyd being ejected from a seedy bar in downtown LA because he was, in the words of the anonymous bouncer, "Being "Drunk and Disorderly and swearing and cursing like a trooper at the bar staff and accosting several young ladies?
If I told you what the Anonymous Bartender told me what he heard and saw you doing, I would blush to tell you.
Tell me, Floyd. How do YOU like it?
Are you any fonder of the truth now?